Tuesday, November 08, 2005

In Defense of France

Too many conservative venues have inadvertently exonerated the Islamic attacks in France by blaming the victim first. For years, conservatives have understood that savage acts are not the fault of society but of the vicious individuals who commit them. Today, we read about France’s dysfunctional economy, its policy of appeasement, and its obstructionist foreign policy. These are all valid criticisms but they shouldn’t be elevated above the fact that Islamic hostility to the West is independent of our action or inaction. I’ve talked about the root cause in the past.

France’s record of appeasement doesn’t mean “they brought it upon themselves” any more than our record of appeasement means we brought 9/11 upon ourselves. It’s appropriate to note the prudent measures that are required to fight the enemy but it should never replace the moral condemnation and intellectual identification of that which drives the enemy.

In France, the left has dominated intellectual life and determined French politics not unlike it would here if there were a slight change in numbers. It wouldn’t have taken that many people for Kerry to have been elected. We may be critical of the French regime but in this struggle, we must be on the side of France—even if they are not yet ready to fight. Indeed, as I’ve pointed out, it is illegal to even discuss the problem.

The irrational hatred that the French intellectuals spew in our direction is obvious good reason to be critical of their culture and policies. But now is not the time. In this battle we should want France to win. Let’s hope she wakes up sooner rather than later.

Update: Daniel Pipes and Robert Spencer, of course.
Update2: Grant Jones, AOW, Pastorius, Sixth Column, Robert Bidinotto, all have extensive comments and links. As do many others in the list of links at the right. What the mainstream media fails to do, the Internet has done tenfold. Great job everyone!


Blogger gandalf said...

Looking at the situation in Europe especially in France, I feel that this part of the great mans speech entitled "Be Ye Men of Valour" is highly appropriate


Winston Churchill May 1940

Our task is not only to win the battle - but to win the war. After this battle in France abates its force, there will come the battle for our Island -- for all that Britain is, and all the Britain means. That will be the struggle. In that supreme emergency we shall not hesitate to take every step, even the most drastic, to call forth from our people the last ounce and the last inch of effort of which they are capable. The interests of property, the hours of labor, are nothing compared with the struggle of life and honor, for right and freedom, to which we have vowed ourselves.

11/8/05, 2:05 PM  
Blogger LA Sunset said...

I am pulling for her. I am not so arrogant that I cannot see that a stable Europe is most certainly in the best interests of America, as well as the whole world. I lived in Europe, I loved it. I deeply wish they would come around and join the effort to combat this movement, now. Before it is too late.

11/8/05, 2:50 PM  
Blogger Benjamin said...

Thanks for saying this. I was feeling sorry for the French too. They did once have a great culture.

11/8/05, 3:20 PM  
Blogger Always On Watch said...

I am a political conservative, but I harbor no ill will toward France. I feel no satisfaction in casting blame. Rather, I am saddened that Western civilization is under attack.

Can France wake up in time?

11/8/05, 8:25 PM  
Blogger (((Thought Criminal))) said...

Despite France being the closest to Western Civilization you can get without actually crossing into it, I do feel a twinge of sorrow for the bastards. They might have potentially become a relevant member of the international community someday, if not for this.

11/8/05, 10:52 PM  
Blogger beakerkin said...


We may have our own flash point in Union Square or Journal Square. My friends in Jersey are saying it is tense.

11/8/05, 10:57 PM  
Blogger Always On Watch said...

Flashpoint in Union Square or in Journal Square ? Dear God!

I had been worried about Detroit, although today I read something about LA.

Is an outbreak of violence here inevitable?

11/8/05, 11:13 PM  
Blogger Pastorius said...

If we had an outbreak in LA, I don't think it would be from Arab Muslims. They are wealthy, and even power brokers out here. I'm not too worried. And, I don't know anything about the Detroit area, except that they have a publicly blasted call to prayer in Dearborn.

I don't think we have to worry about riots in the U.S. Now, WMD's? Yeah, that's another thing altogether.

Don't forget, after Israel, we, here in America, harbor the most Jews. And the Jews are the first enemy of the Islamofascists.

11/9/05, 12:02 AM  
Blogger Jason Pappas said...

At first glance there seems to be a pattern. Those conservatives that blame France are the only that can’t believe something that calls itself a religion—Islam—can be bad. Has anyone else notice that? It appears that once they let Islam off the hook they need to look for another explanation. The left does this also. That’s why I wrote my root causes piece. Today, Front Page Magazine has a similar piece to dismiss the bogus root causes.

One the other hand, conservatives (and some others) who've been saying all along that Islam plays a central role are not surprised. And the evidence, as it comes in, is clear. I also think it is turning some heads even if they have to read between the lines at present.

11/9/05, 6:43 AM  
Blogger Jason Pappas said...

Amro, you obviously read little of what I wrote. Might I suggest a, b, and c. Come back after you actually consider my ideas.

11/9/05, 7:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...



11/9/05, 8:08 PM  
Blogger Jason Pappas said...

You preach that Muhammad is the true prophet. I'm not religious so why would I want to consider your religion?

Mohammad was a violent man who slaughtered, plundered, conquered and ruled. He's a horrible example.

11/9/05, 8:13 PM  
Blogger Jason Pappas said...

Amro, I am deleting your comments since you do not deal with anything that I write. You have your own website to rant. Do it there.

11/9/05, 9:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


11/9/05, 9:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"One Day(Judgement Day) those who disbelieve will wish that they were Muslims, so let them eat and enjoy themselves and be diverted by their false hope, but one day they will know."(Quran 15:2-3)

It is your right to speak out against Islam if you want to (as long as you don't incite violence towards innocent muslims) but
never think you will win even if the whole world is on your side, because the the truth (Islam) will always prevail and your fate will like those of the past generations. The likes of the people of Noah, Pharoah, Abu Jahl and Abdullah Ibn Ubay, far greater in strength they were than you but their strength didn't avail them for God is severe in punishment and swift into taking account. So they were disgraced in this life but the disgrace in the hereafter is far greater if you only knew.

visit www.answering-islam.com so that you might be enlightened, just give it try.

11/9/05, 9:21 PM  
Blogger Jason Pappas said...

Sixty years ago there were far more people switching to Communism--over a billion in a 10 year period. Yet Communism is dying out today as Islam will be on its death bed 50 years from today. You, Amro, will be in the ash bin of history like Nazism and Communism are today.

11/9/05, 10:50 PM  
Blogger beakerkin said...

The bottom line is paternalism practiced in Europe or the US does not work. Poverty is not the cause because I can readily point out poverty in Vt, barrios and in Chinatown. Turning people into perpetual victims and handing them a check and a pat on the head is racist and dehumanizing

11/10/05, 2:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Your such a fool, Nazism and Communism are political and economic idealogies. They originated in the 20th century and died in the same century. Islam is a religion and a way of life it originated from time of Abraham (or if you don't want believe me, it originated in the 6th century)and its been strong for 1400 years and still is going. It survived its first 23 years(years of prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him)) through intense persecution(in fact the first martyr in Islam was not in the battlefeild but was a woman who was speared in her private parts by ABU JAHL for not abandoning islam) and through the initial battles were Muslims were outnumber 3 to 1. It survived the crusades and it survived colonialism. So trust me Islam will outlive you. Just look at its early history and the conflicts it faced when muslims were nothing but a few dozen followers. So you will see.

Furthermore, learn about Abu Jahl, Abu Lahab, Abdullah Ibn Ubay, Huyah ibn Akhtab all who violently plotted against Islam and said ISLAM WILL SURELY DISAPPEAR IN THEIR LIFETIME and see what happened to them. Indeed, it is you Jason who will be in the trash bin of history.

11/10/05, 4:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Sixty years ago there were far more people switching to Communism--over a billion in a 10 year period. Yet Communism is dying out today as Islam will be on its death bed 50 years from today. You, Amro, will be in the ash bin of history like Nazism and Communism are today"

GOD doesn't care about quantity, rather He cares more about quality, so even if the whole world except for one person should abandon Islam, GOD is free of need.

[Qur'an 14.8] And Moses said: "If ye show ingratitude, ye and all on earth together, then Allah is free of all wants, worthy of all praise. "

You see Jason you think in terms of this worldy life, so what, if everybody should abandon Islam as long as I don't that's all that matters for it's being saved from the disgrace on Judgement Day(a day 50,000 years long) and from eternity in hell, as you and every arrogant and insolent liar will see, that matters.

11/10/05, 4:56 AM  
Blogger Jason Pappas said...

Amro, we all know that Islam is first and foremost a political ideology. It was founded by a man who plundered caravans, slaughtered, terrorized critics, conquered Arabia, ruled and ethnically cleansed Medina. In its first century it conquered most of the known world. Ruling and oppressing others is a sign, to a Muslim, that Islam is in God's favor.

Islam was originally a state religion - not a personal religion. Islam is as much an ideology as Marxism is. You don't have to lie about Islam anymore--the truth is out.

11/10/05, 6:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What Islam has going for it as an ideology, is that unlike Nazism and Communism, it promises horrible suffering in the afterlife for the disbelievers. Muhammad was quite a clever politician in that regard. Notice that both Muslim commenters bring up that threat about eternal suffering. Islam hasn't persisted because it has truth on its side (anyone who thinks that God picked a self-serving man of such manifest evil as Muhammad as his final messenger is obviously a fool) - but because it induces FEAR. Fear has nothing to do with truth. And since Muslims DO NOT have truth on their side, all they can do is try to induce FEAR, by threatening people with violence in this life, and if they can't get away with that, then they invoke the threat of violence in the next.


11/10/05, 10:04 AM  
Blogger (((Thought Criminal))) said...

A 50,000 year long day would suck, except for the 521 year long smoke breaks.

11/10/05, 6:40 PM  
Blogger Caroline said...

This will be a first for me after several years of blog comments, namely to copy and past a comment I left on another site cause it took a while to post and cause I'm lazy.:-) I've been disturbed about CAIR's attacks on Robert Spencer at jihadwatch because his site is so very critical to the counter-jihad. Anyway, I posted to a dead thread (heh, yesterday is already a dead thread, that's how active the global jihad is).

My comment at jihadwatch is in response to jsla, who notes that CAIR doesn't take comments on their site and that's probably because they fear the large number of really violent comments they would get if they opened their site to free Muslim commentary. My response refers people to the "Muslim Comments" section of Ali Sina's faithfreedom.org, which features amazingly violent threats to Mr. Sina. But the point I really want visiting Muslims to see is this:

"...it is abundantly obvious that most of these poor commenters truly believe that if they do not accept Islam that they will suffer every sort of heinous physical torture in the afterlife. So abject FEAR obviously plays a huge role in keeping Muslims in line - not just the overt fear that jsla describes of being murdered for apostasy, but the even bigger fear that these poor souls will themselves suffer the most gruesome physical punishments in the afterlife. This afterlife "physicality" concept goes hand in hand with the notion that the "martyrs" will enjoy all sorts of physical pleasures, including food, drink and sex.

Obviously Muhammad didn't understand basic scientific concepts about corporeality, if that's the proper word, but it would be really really helpful if Muslims could grasp the basic idea that the physical body does not survive death and hence cannot suffer these horrible physical tortures (which require a physical body) and neither can they experience the promised physical pleasures. No human being actually knows what happens after we die but most of us now understand (thanks primarily to science) that whatever it is most likely takes place at the level of something like "spirit" or "consciousness" and doesn't literally involve these corporeal and material realities that Muslims fear so much (and, in the case of those expecting corporeal pleasures, are willing to kill their fellow human beings to guarantee for themselves)."

The reason I post this here, is as a sort of follow-up to the 2 previous Muslim commenters (I wouldn't go so off-topic if it didn't appear to be a somewhat 'dead thread'), but also because the more I listen to everyday Muslim's comments - like those at faithfreedom.org, the more I realize how much Muslims may be driven not so much by hate per se, as by FEAR.

Many of them haven't been exposed to western theories about science. But I don't think that's all of it. I think most westerners can look around them everyday and encounter literally tons of their fellow men who are not afraid of being burned in hellfire for eternity for their sinful actions on earth. So even though none of us actually knows in fact what happens when we die, we take comfort in the beliefs of our fellow men. But the average Muslim person is probably surrounded by people telling him or her that they will literally suffer every conceivable form of suffering in the afterlife. Their parents, their imams, their friends, and so on.

I bring it up because if this FEAR is in fact, a huge part of what drives the Muslim psychology (and if one doubts this, try reading pages of the Muslim comments at faithfreedom.org), then maybe the "anti-jihadist" bloggers would be wise to take this issue on more overtly. In other words, to address this crucial muslim "motivation" (call it the belief in afterlife corporeality or something) more directly. Maybe we need to recognize that there are certain 7th century assumptions which have been long discarded in the west but which still drive, in a very central and visceral way, the motivations of the people we are confronting in this "clash of civilizations".

11/10/05, 8:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you for stopping by today, Jason. Semper Fidelis, my friend.

11/10/05, 9:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Blah, blah,blah, there you go again Jason. Honestly man for more than 1000 years Christion missionaries have demonizing Islam and Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and for the last 300 years the Orientalist have joined the fray. All of them thought that in their lifetime they were going to get rid of Islam but it was to no avail. So if you really are that stupid to think that you will rid yourself of a religion 1.4 billion strong, 1/5 of the world population, and having a strong presence in every western country, then all power to you. Go ahead try your best, no try harder than that. God will only increase you in destruction until the day you meet Him. AS for me, I'm creating a presence at UCLA, where Muslim Student Association has more group members than any other group. Where we serve the community, through homeless feedings, and opening a free medical clinic, and tutoring poor high school kids and juvenile prisoners in math and science so they can have another chance in life.

Again, Islam is a way of life not an ideology.

As for you Caroline, I have never heard anything more silly than your argument. Furthermore, you don't think that Christian preachers talk about Hell in their sermons to instill fear in their followers.

You see Caroline, because people like don't believe in the afterlife, you will never understand what it means and why we fear hell. Furthermore, are religion is not all fear but mercy from a loving God, WHO FOR EVERY GOOD DEED AWARDS 10 TIMES THE REWARD BUT FOR EVERY BAD DEED ONLY PUNISHES YOU WITH THE EQUIVALENT.

Furthermore, Prophet Muhammed contrary to your asinine comments about him instilling fear in his followers, is considered the most influential man who ever lived by non-Muslim historian Michael Hart:
http://www.adherents.com/adh_influ.html#Muhammad I'm sure he did that all by fear when he never directly killed a person in his life.

11/10/05, 9:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...




11/10/05, 9:42 PM  
Blogger Jason Pappas said...

Abdullah, you are tiring. You deal with little of what I write. Muhammad was a warrior and Islam is a political ideology, first and foremost. You need to read more than the Islamic propaganda. Yes, most Muslims don’t fully practice Islam and that’s good. But today there is an Islamic Revival – Muslims are beginning to take seriously their duty to wage jihad on the Infidel. You, sir, are the enemy. America is waking up. You can stop lying now, the truth is out.

11/10/05, 10:04 PM  
Blogger Caroline said...


Read what you wrote about the good deeds you do. You do them as a MUSLIM - not as a human being. Therefore, you do them for gain - for YOUR ego as a Muslim (or to gain MUSLIM converts). You won't understand that point. It's a little too subtle for your level of morality.

"because people like don't believe in the afterlife, you will never understand what it means and why we fear hell."

Thanks for confirming the point I was making.

"Furthermore, are religion is not all fear but mercy from a loving God, WHO FOR EVERY GOOD DEED AWARDS 10 TIMES THE REWARD BUT FOR EVERY BAD DEED ONLY PUNISHES YOU WITH THE EQUIVALENT."

Again - you're reinforcing my point about the primitive level of your understanding of morality. Are you familiar with the behavioral psychologist BF Skinner? You sound like one of his rats who has learned to press the correct lever for the maximum reward.

Again - I realize you won't have a clue about what I'm saying. We're simply speaking different languages.

11/10/05, 10:12 PM  
Blogger Jason Pappas said...

Great points, Caroline, and way to subtle for Amro ... but I enjoyed them.

11/10/05, 10:20 PM  
Blogger Caroline said...

"I'm sure he did that all by fear when he never directly killed a person in his life."

This is a joke right? He's OK because he never DIRECTLY killed a person in his life? No matter how many people he directly ordered his minions to kill and maim? He told a bunch of ignorant folks like yourself that he was the prophet of God and that if they didn't do his evil deeds for him that they would suffer eternal torture in hell. And that's OK with you apparently. That's your idea of the perfect man. I don't think Charles Manson ever directly killed anyone either but his followers massacred people. We arrested him and removed him from society before he could do further damage. Did it ever occur to you for even one minute that you have quite possibly embraced evil?

11/10/05, 10:26 PM  
Blogger Caroline said...

Thanks jason. Obviously we have our work cut out for us.:-)

11/10/05, 10:29 PM  
Blogger Caroline said...

Amro: "Furthermore, you don't think that Christian preachers talk about Hell in their sermons to instill fear in their followers."

Umm, Amro, I hope it hasn't escaped your notice that Christian preachers threaten hell for those who KILL people. Slight moral difference from your prophet, wouldn't you say?

11/10/05, 10:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


The story of the Mighty Samson:

"Self sacrifice" and giving your life away intentionally and taking as many enemy lives with you as possible for the sake of GOD Almighty and your people exists in the Bible. Let us look at the story of the Mighty Samson in the Bible:

"Samson said to the servant who held his hand, "Put me where I can feel the pillars that support the temple, so that I may lean against them." Now the temple was crowded with men and women; all the rulers of the Philistines were there, and on the roof were about three thousand men and women watching Samson perform. Then Samson prayed to the LORD, "O Sovereign LORD , remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes." Then Samson reached toward the two central pillars on which the temple stood. Bracing himself against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other, Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived. (From the NIV Bible, Judges 16:26-30)"

Note: I called him "Mighty Samson" because he was extremely powerful. He was far much more stronger than all men in his time.

As we clearly see from the Bible, Samson gave his life for his people by killing as much from the enemy as possible.

Samson prayed to GOD to give him back his power (Samson lost his power after the seven braids of his hair were shaven by Delilah and her people while he was sleeping, Judges 16:1-20), and GOD Almighty granted him that revoked power back. Samson then was able to bring the temple down upon him and his enemies.

Question was raised to me: I was asked to show a proof that GOD Almighty approved of Samson's suicide that killed himself and his enemies. Well, GOD Almighty apparently knew what Samson was up to and thus He decided to grant him his revoked power back to enable him to kill himself and his enemies. So therefore, GOD Almighty did approve of Samson's action. Otherwise, why would GOD give back Samson his power after revoking it from him? And didn't He know about Samson's plan and intentions of suicide?

Another Question raised to me: I was asked to show from the Bible where did GOD Almighty indeed grant Samson his power back so he can commit suicide in the intention of taking his enemies with him. Well, let us read Judges 16:19-22:

"Having put him to sleep on her lap, she called a man to shave off the seven braids of his hair, and so began to subdue him. And his strength left him. Then she called, "Samson, the Philistines are upon you!" He awoke from his sleep and thought, "I'll go out as before and shake myself free." But he did not know that the LORD had left him. Then the Philistines seized him, gouged out his eyes and took him down to Gaza. Binding him with bronze shackles, they set him to grinding in the prison. But the hair on his head began to grow again after it had been shaved. (From the NIV Bible, Judges 16:19-22)"

Now let us read Judges 16:28:

"Then Samson prayed to the LORD, "O Sovereign LORD , remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes." (From the NIV Bible, Judges 16:28)"

Here we see that GOD Almighty apparently gave Samson the chance to get his power back through growing his hair back. GOD Almighty wanted for Samson to take his own life and the life of his enemies with him. He willed for him to die this way. He could've simply willed for Samson to die on the spot after his enemies gouged his eyes for him. But no, instead, GOD Almighty decided for Samson to die while enabling him to take as many pagan Philistines with him as possible.

GOD in the Bible actually makes the point very clear: "Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived. (From the NIV Bible, Judges 16:30)"

My challenge to all Jews and Christians: Show me in the Bible where GOD Almighty condemned the actions of Samson.

So to all of those hypocrites from Jewish and Christian Rabies and Ministers who call the Palestinian Suicide Martyrs as "Homicide Bombers", how are the Palestinians today different from what Samson did before?

I don't blame the regular Jews and Christians because they don't know much about their Bible. But I do have a great deal of problem with the hypocrites and the Pedophiles of the Churches who know everything about their porn-full bible, the book of women's breasts and vaginas taste like wine, and brothers and sisters sleeping with each others (see the proofs and quotes for yourself from the porn-full bible), because they clearly have double standards. They are clearly contradicting themselves and their porn-full bible.


11/10/05, 11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Volume 9, Book 83, Number 49:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr:

The Prophet said, "Whoever killed a Mu'ahid (a person who is granted the pledge of protection by the Muslims) shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years (of traveling)."

Also from the Sunnah, specifically in a report from Al-Khatib, we find that the Messenger of Allah (saas) also said:

"Whoever hurts a non-Muslim person under protection, I am his adversary, and I shall be an adversary to him on the Day of Resurrection."

One historical example of Muslims living up to the standard of Islam can be found from the time of the Spanish Inquisition. During that disaster sprung by misguided Catholics, some Spanish Jews fled to Muslim Turkey and to this day, there is a community of Spanish-speaking Jews in Turkey. Another example may be found during one of the Crusader invasions from Western Europe. Some of the the Catholic Western European knights were so likely to rape, murder, and pillage the Jews and Orthodox Christians, that when the Muslims won, they were treated as a liberating force by those non-Muslims.

11/10/05, 11:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I bring it up because if this FEAR is in fact, a huge part of what drives the Muslim psychology (and if one doubts this, try reading pages of the Muslim comments at faithfreedom.org)"

"And since Muslims DO NOT have truth on their side, all they can do is try to induce FEAR, by threatening people with violence in this life, and if they can't get away with that, then they invoke the threat of violence in the next. "


"We have not sent down the Qur'an to thee to be (an occasion) for thy distress, " (Quran 20:2)

"We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures. " (Quran 21:107)

You see Caroline, we Muslims don't believe in Islam just because we fear Hell, but because we want gain the pleasure of God for eternity in Paradise and because it is our duty as human beings to enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil. The Quran was not sent as something to scare us from doing anything. Furthermore, Islam, unlike most religions, is against monasticism, so it doesn't ask you to sacrifice your life to be confined in solitude in fear of God, making sure you do not even seek lawful pleasure (like marraige).


I do not avoid living a sinful because I'm just afraid of God, but because I look at God as a father figure, who I do not want to disappoint and instead want Him to be pleased with me.

"Read what you wrote about the good deeds you do. You do them as a MUSLIM - not as a human being. Therefore, you do them for gain - for YOUR ego as a Muslim (or to gain MUSLIM converts). You won't understand that point. It's a little too subtle for your level of morality. "

NOPE, me and probably Amro would be good muslims even if there was no afterlife because it is a way of life that enjoins upon you a healthy lifestyle: moderation in eating, spending, avoiding usury, avoiding pre-marital sex, avoiding intoxicants, charity, daily abulution, education etc. Religion was created to create order in people's lives. It doesn't mean that secular societies can not be orderly and justful societies, but more than likely: Godless societies (such as Soviet Union and China) don't believe in a concept of justice and thus the oppressor who has no one to oppose him can get away with anything for he has nothing to fear. The idea that its not a crime as long as you get away with it becomes prevalent. But the idea that one day you will be held accountable for everything you did whether you did it in secret or publically (as long as he or she doesn't repent) keeps one in check.

11/11/05, 12:21 AM  
Blogger Jason Pappas said...

Amro, your post starting with “SUICIDE BOMBING …” talks about the Old Testament (OT). For Christianity, the New Testament (NT) supersedes the OT. For Islam, it is in essence, the opposite (I talk about this here.) Islam is an OT type religion. I’m not religious but I see the option, for Christians, to allow the NT to dominate. Islam is the opposite, the harsh Medinan period supersedes the moderate early Meccan period. There is even a formal doctrine of abrogation.

Your next post talks about “protection” of Christian and Jews – who if they obey Muslims won’t be killed like pagans and polytheists. Note, they don’t have rights as human beings but are grudgingly spared death (unlike pagans) if they accept servitude. This is alien to the American notion of universal rights. On this blog we all know about dhimmis.

Historical examples are useless in and of themselves since they don’t explain if the people acted because of the religion or despite the religion. The question for me, a non-religious person, is not who failed in history but who succeeded. The acceptance of individual rights is an ideal, aspiration, and to a large extent an achievement in English speaking countries – where people find that it is in harmony with their Christianity. You point to the fact that nominal adherents of all faiths had problems; but I point out that Christians and Jews have been able to develop and live in free societies for centuries in the English speaking lands (USA, UK, Canada, Australia, etc.)

Thus, Amro, Mohammad's example as a political ruler in Medina is one that is incompatible with a liberal (free) society – all atheists must be killed, for example, and he ethnically cleansed Medina of Jews. Jesus, on the other hand, gives no such example. After many centuries, some Christians have been able to sustain a free society that even respects the rights of atheists and treats or aspires to treat all individuals with respect – something a Muslim can do only if he ignores the example of Mohammad’s rule.

11/11/05, 6:57 AM  
Blogger beakerkin said...

To the sons of Allah

Beamish Ahkbar

Every other religion on the planet is responsible for its strife with Islam. Want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge ? Islam equal totalitarian land theft and is less responsible then ypur average mafioso

11/11/05, 8:26 AM  
Blogger Caroline said...

Abdullah: "The Quran was not sent as something to scare us from doing anything"

My dear Abdullah, The Koran was not SENT by anyone, let alone God. It was invented by Muhammad for his own self-serving purposes. Haven't you noticed how his "revelations" were so conveniently timed to justify what was always in his own self-interest? This is the whole point of examining the so-called prophet's basic character - that of a theif, assassin, murderer, pedophile, rapist, slave-taker. He also endorsed lying.

Now I realize this is difficult for you but please try real hard to put 2 and 2 together here. It's really not rocket science and you and amro do appear to be somewhat educated people.

As for Islam as a "way of life" that promotes moderation, might I suggest a simpler alternative that would not have you worshipping at the feet of one of history's most evil men? Application of The Golden Rule plus a healthclub membership.

11/11/05, 10:23 AM  
Blogger beakerkin said...


I am jealous the Jihadist clowns gave you an award. No doubt a blog that advertises a book compared by the NYT to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a reliable source.

There is o prophet other then Mr Beamish . Read learn and improve your worthless souls.

You will be protected Dummies in Beamishism. Just pay us 130% of your earnings as a lower life form and we will take ten percent of your children annualy to build the Army of Beamish.

Oh I forgot been there done that.

Beamish Ahkbar

11/11/05, 7:36 PM  
Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

We are not at war with Islam. But we are at war with every vicious terrorist thug who chooses to target the infidel. It's that simple.

The rest is entertainment. Sure, we can make fun of France, like we always do. It's shooting fish in a barrel, and it's hard to resist. But, like many of the other commenters here, I think this may not be quite the right time.

France is handling its crisis very foolishly, ineffectively, and short-sightedly. But the enemy is the issue, not the French response. The enemy continues to plan, probe, and attack. We're next.

I grieve for the imminent demise of a once-great nation.

11/11/05, 10:57 PM  
Blogger Always On Watch said...

I read yesterday that France would not be celebrating Armistice Day. Too offensive?

Quite a discussion here. Sorry to have missed out on tossing in my two cents.

PS: I'm still smiling over Beamish's smoke-breaks comment.

11/12/05, 7:05 AM  
Blogger American Crusader said...

Wow...what a great discussion..obviously the result of a provocative post. While I may feel sorry for France, France has brought this upon itself. It's obstructionist politics have left it isolated from their traditional allies. You are correct that France needs to win this war but before it can do that it must decide which course to follow. It can continue its attempt to appease Islamic extremist or France can wake up and realize it must fight to retain its identity.

11/12/05, 11:34 AM  
Blogger American Crusader said...

There was one other thing I wanted to mention. I noticed throughout many arguments people were comparing what the Bible says and what the Koran says but I didn't see one key element mentioned. The Koran is the exact word of God if you are a Muslim. Every verse comes directly from Allah, there is nothing left to interpretation. The Bible..and I'm including both Old and New testament is considered to be inspired by God and written by man. That's a big difference....when Allah says to slay the infidels wherever you find them..there is no need for interpretation...this is God's word.

11/12/05, 1:41 PM  
Blogger (((Thought Criminal))) said...

Samson as suicide bomber?

Nevermind that silly argument.

How could anyone walk away from reading the story of Samson and not believe the Gaza Strip is Jewish land?

11/12/05, 2:51 PM  
Blogger (((Thought Criminal))) said...

Speaking of Islam's alleged goodness towards Jews and Christians, whatever happened to the churches of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea?

These are the Seven Churches of Asia mention in Revelation, the 1st Century Christian congregations in what is now Turkey, decimated by the Seleucids.

Don't tell us how good Turkish Muslims were. They're sitting on top of OUR holy sites, just as Muslims have stolen holy sites from Jews, Hindus, and the Vedic polytheists of Mecca.

Islam is a religion of thieves.

11/12/05, 3:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My dear Abdullah, The Koran was not SENT by anyone, let alone God. It was invented by Muhammad for his own self-serving purposes. Haven't you noticed how his "revelations" were so conveniently timed to justify what was always in his own self-interest? This is the whole point of examining the so-called prophet's basic character - that of a theif, assassin, murderer, pedophile, rapist, slave-taker. He also endorsed lying.


when asked about prophet Muhammed(pbuh) he said the following you can look it up in the source I provided:
"I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those day in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his interpidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle."

"When I closed the second volume of the Prophet's biography(the medina period) I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life."

Young India, quoted in "The Light, Lahore, for 16th September, 1924. Mahatma Ghandi


look through out the website www.harunyahya.com and if you are sincere and not arrogant you will understand why I believe Islam is the true religion of God otherwise I guess you are just spiritually dead.

11/15/05, 1:51 AM  
Blogger Caroline said...

abdullah - I almost missed your last post.

"I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind."

So he wanted to know the BEST of the life of your prophet. Kudos to him for trying to empathize with your mindset. But I hope it doesn't escape your notice that he is SEARCHING for something good here in the midst of what is otherwise a great deal of evil - or why else does he bother to search for the BEST to understand what keeps people like you believing in such a man?

So what does he come up with?

1. "rigid simplicity"

Not easy simplicity, not pure simplicity, not enlightened simplicity, but RIGID simplicity.

2. "the utter self-effacement of the Prophet"

Ghandi was a politician of course who also had to deal with a large Muslim populace but when he refers to "self-effacement" he is obviously referring to the prophet's (supposed) submission to Allah but it is utterly ludicrous to in any other way describe Muhammad as self-effacing. He kept all the best booty for himself and his "revelations" are otherwise so obviously self-serving as to make such a claim a joke.

3. "scrupulous regard for his pledges"

What does that mean? We're all familiar with Muhammad's endorsement of lying, breaking treaties, declaring that "war is deceit".

4. "his intense devotion to his friends and followers"

So what? He was loyal to his own. Loyal to his followers. A common bank robber is loyal to his friends. Many a tyrant has been loyal to his followers. Show me where he was utterly self-effacing, forgiving and kind to his enemies and you might have a point in favor of his character.

5. "his interpidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission"

That same statement could be made about any tyrant in history.Muhammad's own apparent belief in his mission means nothing at all. I can assure you that Charles Manson was also utterly convinced as to the righteousness of his beliefs and mission. So was Hitler. Again - utterly meaningless.

6. "These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle."

So as Barnum said, There's a fool born every minute. Most men are afraid and uncertain and incapable of discerning truth and reality for themselves. History is the story of weak, ignorant men who have looked for a confident strongman to tell them what to think and what to do and how to act and live. Most don't go so far as to tell folks the proper way to wipe their asses which ought to give you some clue as to what a fraud Muhammad was (although he obviously grasped completely the mentality of lost and uncertain people who need minute guidance in life) but if that doesn't give you a clue let me just note that Ghandi wasn't God. He was a politician. Of course he's going to search for something flattering to say about the prophet of a large number of his constituency. But look between the lines and see how PAINED that description is.

And look inside yourself and see how so utterly unsure of yourself that you and so many other Muslims feel compelled to compile EXTERNAL confirmation for your belief in the form of "so and so said this" and there are x number of Muslims in the world and so many people can't possibly be wrong and so on and so on.

Surely you are familiar with the fact that most people once believed that the earth was flat. Surely you are familiar with the briliant Danish fairy tale of the Emperor's New Clothes. Surely you are familiar with Bertrand Russell's famous statement:

“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.”

11/16/05, 8:15 PM  
Blogger Caroline said...

Abdullah: "if you are sincere and not arrogant you will understand why I believe Islam is the true religion of God otherwise I guess you are just spiritually dead."

No Abdullah - I am not arrogant. I throw my lot in with the vast majority of honest men who can simply acknowledge that they DO NOT know for sure WHY we are here and what happens after we die. What people like us DO recognize is that this is all a huge mystery and fraught with much anxiety and uncertainty and that since we human beings are all in the same boat, as it were, we will be KIND to eachother and even very tolerant and understanding of the many beliefs that people grasp on to to relieve this existential anxiety of why the hell we're all here on earth in the first place and what happens after we die.

So no Abdullah. I'm not arrogant at all because I, like many other westerners, admit honestly that we simply CANNOT know the answers to these questions. And ultimately that is what MAKES us tolerant and understanding towards our fellow man.

No Abdullah - YOU are the arrogant one. And if it were merely a matter of you feeling confident and certain about your beliefs (doubtful in itself as you and so many other Muslims obviously feel the need to quote other supposedly authoritative sources to back up your beliefs), I frankly couldn't care less. Are you familiar with the Amish people in Pennsylvania? They live their beliefs completely. They marry only among themselves, they eschew all modern conveniences, including electricity. And nobody cares. We leave them alone. It's none of our business frankly. They aren't arrogant at all. They simply want to be left alone. That's all they ask and that's what civilized people grant them.

So how are Muslims different from the Amish? And why don't we regard them in the same way? It's obvious Abdullah and you know it. Muslims are ARROGANT. So arrogant in their beliefs that they are willing to KILL everyone else or subdue and conquer them so that their beliefs will be proven true - TO THEMSELVES. Muslims are so arrogant and so incapable of dealing with the anxiety of existence, that they are willing to KILL and ENSLAVE other human beings to cope with that existential anxiety in order to give themselves relief. That is sick. That is the definition of human evil. That is also the very DEFINITION of spiritual deadness. Kill everything in your path - other human beings, ideas, (dogs! what kind of sick human being doesn't recognize dogs as a blessing in life?), art, music, creativity, in short - LIFE and the glorious freedom to explore it - simply to satisfy your own UNCERTAINTY and ANXIETY in the face of the MYSTERY OF CREATION. You, Abdullah, are the one who is closed to life and spiritually dead. You are the one who wants to stuff it all in a box (that box is called "The Koran") so that you can make life somehow safe and certain for YOU. That's why Muslims cut out peoples tongues (so they can't say what Muslims don't want to hear) and ultimately why they cut off people's heads (so they can't THINK what might threaten Muslims). Everything threatens you guys. You're scared as hell but instead of OPENING yourselves to that and throwing in your lot with the rest of humanity, you actually KILL your fellow man, to make all that fear go away. No Abdullah - I am not the one who is spiritually dead. You are.

11/16/05, 9:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


I should of known from the beginning that it is pointless for me to argue w/ you because you are arrogant, insincere and not interested in the truth. To you if the anti-muslims are wrong, you do want to be right. It's like trying to convince Hitler that the Jewish people aren't all that bad. It just won't work with you. So believe what you want to believe it is your right but IF U EVER WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE SIMPLICITY and the TRUTH OF ISLAM you know where to reach me. www.answering-islam.com (JUST VISIT IT ONCE)

11/17/05, 7:53 AM  
Blogger Jason Pappas said...

C’mon Abdullah, Caroline was very patient answering your posts. Calling her arrogant, like a child saying “no, you are,” isn’t a way to deal with the substance of her post. It’s hardly fair to someone who shows such consideration.

I would have hoped that from the details of our responses it is apparent that we’re well-read in regard to Islam. This is not like those internet venue where everyone tosses one-liners in ignorance. I would have hoped you’d be more interesting in why we vehemently reject Islam instead of just spamming us with “how do you explain this” posts.

By the way, the post on Post-modernism (in the other thread) is interesting but we can’t discuss this if you are going to throw everything in “including the kitchen sink” as the saying goes.

11/17/05, 8:55 AM  
Blogger Caroline said...

Does Abdullah=Amro=Ro? who has posted this exact same stuff at jihadwatch today? If so, there's no need for me to repeat the same replies, among them the point that attacking Christianity is irrelevant to Islam's truth or falsehood. But I am a little confused by this line of argument here because I never claimed to be a practicing Christian in the first place. Neither would I have ever concerned myself with islam at all if it weren't for the fact that Muslims are killing people every single bloody day all over the world.


Good Lord Abdullah - get a grip! Noone is going to torture you to death for your religion. Surely you're aware that even even the Gitmo prisoners get to keep their Korans. Of course we're well aware that no Muslim country would give Christians Bibles in prison. By the way, I did read your link to the "Pacifism of Islam" - there's John Esposito and Karen Armstrong as would be expected.

Look, I'm sorry, but there's no way that you will ever convince me that Islam is true. That God would never choose as the conduit for his word a man like Muhammad - someone who had people assassinated, robbed caravans and so on, is completely and utterly transparently obvious to most of mankind.It's even obvious to many Muslims themselves once they discover the truth about Muhammad's history. So forget about convincing me of that.

I would be most grateful though if you would convince other Muslims (you know which ones I mean) that your understanding of Islam is the correct one. You're working hard on that right?? Incidentally, how much of your time do you spend at extremist Muslim websites convincing your religious compatriots that Islam is a pacifistic religion? I would be most interested to hear how your work in that area is going, for the sake of mankind and all and I hope you will update us on your progress.

(P.S. I have no hate for you whatsoever. How could I hate someone I've never even met? That makes no sense at all.)

11/17/05, 5:08 PM  
Blogger beakerkin said...


I respect your efforts and Jasons but there is no logic to the Jihadist bufoons who post here. I will not bandy scriptures and I have read the Koran .

The Jihadists would have everyone believe everyone else is at fault Jews, Every Christian denomination, Sikhs, Hindus , Animists and Budhists all have problems with the land thieving homicidal sons of Allah. Jews, Christians and Hindus lived peacably in India until guess who shows up.

History speaks for itself and Islamo Colonialism is fact.

11/17/05, 7:10 PM  
Blogger Caroline said...

Beakerkin: "History speaks for itself and Islamo Colonialism is fact."

I hear you Beakerkin. But for someone like Abdullah (Amro/Ro?), who seems like a decent enough person, and who strikes me as someone who really and truly believes that Islam is all about love and peace, it must be painful to watch modern history unfold. Muslims seem fairly ignorant about many basic psychological mechanisms that westerners take for granted, that are literally part of our vocabulary. Cognitive Dissonance. PROJECTION. (I'm not saying that Abdullah is personally projecting but that is the substance of much of his rant - pure projection, whereby he imagines that we will torture him to death for his faith while Muslims literally squeeze out every Jew, Hindu and Christian in their midst, through murder, riots, intimidation, forcing them to flee persecution etc etc literally all over the world, where there is a sizable Muslim presence, every single day).

That aside, though, if Abdullah really DOES believe that Islam is all about peace and love, perhaps he can be convinced that his time is better spent convincing his fellow Muslims of that fact than in practicing his Da'wa on us.

To the extent that Islam IS as Islam DOES, then it's abundantly obvious that he's got his work cut out for him. Nevertheless, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here and that's why I eagerly await his updates on his success to convince his fellow Muslims to share his vision of Islam as a pacifistic faith.

If he comes back here and claims that the death and mayhem being perpretrated daily on a worldwide basis by Muslims, has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Islam, then I will know for certain that he is either sincerely deluded or completely insincere. One.

11/17/05, 8:05 PM  
Blogger (((Thought Criminal))) said...

Ghandi is the world's most famous dhimmi. It took an Indian patriot upset with Ghandhi's surrender of the Hindu holy ground now known as Pakistan and his attempts to GIVE India's national treasury to them to muster up the nerve to open some daylight into his internal organs. The only thing tragic about that assassination is that it wasn't caught on film for future enjoyment with a bowl of popcorn (Ben Kingsley's performance in the pseudo-historical "Ghandhi" bio-movie just doesn't do it for me).

There is evidence to suggest that Ghandhi in fact practiced Islam when he lived in South Africa.

11/17/05, 8:58 PM  
Blogger Caroline said...

I had an Indian Hindu immigrant co-worker who politely tried to disabuse me of my western "Saint Ghandi" illusions. She was no fan. That was some years ago and knowing nothing about Islam (or Indian politics/history) at the time, I didn't know what she was talking about.

I do think it is fairly widely understood in the west at this point that Ghandi's nonviolent resistance was successful because he was facing the British.

11/17/05, 9:55 PM  
Blogger (((Thought Criminal))) said...

Bingo, Caroline.

Here's an oldie but goodie on the real Ghandhi.

Anyone who praises Ghandhi's "pacifism" should be shot for being historically illiterate.

11/17/05, 10:35 PM  
Blogger beakerkin said...


Beamish is correct as usual.

Anyone that thinks Islam is about peace is in need of medication . My Maronite, Assyrian, Coptic, Hindu, Bhudist , Bhai , Sikh , Assorted North African and Iran Jews and Chinese friends from Indonesia tell the same exact story. Islam is about theft and is literaly Communism with a god. VS Naipul has written two wonderful books on the subject.

Sons of Allah there is no prophet other then Mr Beamish . Give us 130% of your annual earnings for the pleasure of breathing our air.

Beamish Ahkbar!!!!!!

11/18/05, 1:29 AM  
Blogger (((Thought Criminal))) said...

You have to wonder why the Nehru-ite Islamist leaders in India changed their names to Ghandhi.

"Jews should have offered their necks to the Nazis willingly so their deaths would have meant something" - Mohandas K. Ghandhi

Meant something to who? Fuck Ghandhi.

11/18/05, 11:11 AM  
Blogger Caroline said...

Mr Beamish - I finally managed to read through the link you provided on Ghandi (very long!) and it was a real eye-opener, not only about Ghandi but also about the Indian mindset and Hinduism. Well worth the read. Thanks!

11/20/05, 11:21 AM  

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